Ulti my brain identifies you as innersex, meaning you don't define yourself as male or female socially and are a blend of both. If you want to correct me and identify as both male and female I would probably reclassify you as Bisexual (meaning of 2 sexes). But I typically use the 7 gender system

Male- those who identify as male in the social role
Female- those who identify as female in the social role
Bisexual- Those who identify as both male and female at the same time in a social role
Transgender- those who want it to be known that they were born a different gender but have taken on the opposite gender role in both body and mind (Male or female) ei. My friend Tobias
Feminine Male- Identifies as male but enjoy feminine actives and takes on the woman's role in social situations ie Fa'fafine in Samoan culture
Masculine Female- Identifies as female but enjoy masculine actives and act like a male in certain social constructs ie Tomboy
InnerSex- identifies as neither male or female but a blend of both

Coda i addressed part or your argument in my previous post..

I think you mean "intersex"? in which case, that means someone who has ambiguous genitalia and isn't a mental gender. And I think you mean bigender instead of bisexual... I think owo;

Either way is not completely correct ^^; I identify as genderqueer. Which to me is more "inbetween" than both/neither. It's a hard concept to explain, but that's how I identify ^^;

I know a lot about transgenderism ^^;;;

No I am going off how I wrote categories down 2 years ago for a class.
Innersex means no mental definition of gender despite whatever your genitalia is. Intersex is a different term than Innersex in the anthropological community. It deals with their soft tissue, and their gender identity not one or the other.
Bisexual = Bigender, but my teacher prefers to term bisexual, she is an older woman in her 70's, I don't argue.

Genderqueer is Innersex in the broad category of not identifying as either sex but a mix of both or not defined. I swear to god I am having to pull out notes from my intro to cultural anthropology class. Gender definitions has it's own class... if you can tell how hard it is for us to categorize.

And even then bigender and androgynous aren't synonymous terms; while both refer to a blend of male and female traits (and some people consider bigender to be a subtype of androgyny) they're different identities.

Edit: Bisexual is NOT bigender. Bisexual refers to what partners you're attracted to; bigender refers to having an identity consisting of two genders. Your teacher is quite simply wrong and you shouldn't take what she says for granted.

ISN'T GENDER FUN, KIDDIES? 0w0

Splitting hairs Coda, broad categories meant to encompass larger groups so when dealing with peoples of different countries with different gender ideals you have a basic understanding.

No Ulti gender is not fun, I have to take that class if i want to work internationally... so I don't go "oh the bones lean 90% towards the XX sex so they would be female" (what I would most likely say in the US) and offend some one and get killed instead i have to go "They lean toward the XX sex so socially you would call them Female, (insert Masculine Female group subtitle), (insert Innersex title), or (insert Transgender title)."

Those categorizations are fine if you're trying to understand a culture, but NOT if you're trying to understand a person. Those categorizations will ALWAYS leave people out unless you're defining "innersex" as a catch-all "other" group, and then it loses all useful descriptive value.

I'm not splitting hairs. I'm defining the universe of discourse.

Yes, yes it is.

I think it's worth pointing out that there isn't, or doesn't appear to be, any straight definition of gender or sex that every discipline uses. Tiva, you are discussing the approach you take in Anthropology, but that doesn't mean that each other science or discipline will take it the same way, and that's part of existing debates on the nature of gender/sex/etc.

I imagine each discipline's approach to gender and sex is affected by how much it "cares" about it. I studied a fair amount of sociology in my first two years on college, among a general mixture of social sciences in all four years). In my classes, it was pointed out that gender and sex are two different things. Sex referred to an individual's biological assignment, which could be either male, female, or indeterminate. Gender referred to the habits that were categorized as either masculine or feminine, that were typically associated with each sex. Gender was viewed as largely social, while sex was biological. Since sociology cares a whole lot about perceptions of things in a society, that separation makes sense.

The same thing was done in my Women's Studies courses. Part of the issue with "gender inequality" was that the personal traits seen as masculine were considered more valuable than those perceived as feminine, and this was an excuse for the elevation of men because masculine traits are more predominant in males. This is not the only explanation for inequality of course, but it's one, and one I think we can still see in that it's largely acceptable for a woman to act in a masculine fashion, while it's not as acceptable for a man to act feminine (this is my personal observation here).

I admit, I find this thread a little confusing at times because, being accustomed to gender and sex being two different things, but knowing that people often use "gender" to refer to biological sex, I'm not always sure what exactly people are talking about.

I know that there are people who argue against defining sex by the presence of a Y chromosome and male parts, because they view that as a definition made by a society that focuses on men (such a person might point out the use of the word "Man" or "Mankind" to refer to humanity as another example). I'm not saying this to say that your definition is wrong, just that there is more than one approach to sex and gender, even in the academic world, and I think you'd be hard pressed to point at any particular approach and say 'this is how it works.'

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.
My avi's gender tends to switch back and forth according to how my whims and how I'm feeling that day, which mirror's my idea of my own gender rather well
2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?
I have this issue in online games too, where I tend to refer to the person I'm talking to by the gender of their avatar or character until I am corrected-I guess I'm still too visual when it comes to gender

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?
I don't think it's important to know the gender of the person you are talking to-it is the internet after all XD

In recent years, "Hey, are you a guy or a girl?" has become such a difficult question to answer, haha, ha...

There was a time in my past where my answer to that question was "no". :P (And another time where the answer was "yes".)

Answering "no" or "yes" does seem the best way to do it. I like it. I'm going to take that from now on.

Not that anyone asks me IRL, anymore.

I remember reading a cute little story in college. Can't remember what it was called, something like "Baby X" (X being the name I can't remember) and it was a about a couple that raised their kid with the sex a secret. They dressed the kid in gender neutral colours and gender neutral clothing (overalls so people couldn't tell gender by which way the buttons went on a shirt) and the kid did both masculine and feminine things, it had a gender neutral name, and eventually in school other kids began doing things that their "genders" weren't supposed to do, like the sporty boy vacuuming floors and the girly girl mowing the lawn. Parents started throwing a fuss until they demanded the kid's sex be determined. We never did get the answer to that, but the point was that the kid knew perfectly well what it was, and that everyone else would know when it actually mattered, the implication being that someone's sex doesn't matter until reproduction comes into things.

Pretty sure it's fiction, but. I liked the story. The parents were all frustrated but the children couldn't care less. My mother raised me somewhat the same way. We wore boys' clothes sometimes when she thought the girls' clothes looked stupid. She got us toy trucks and things as kids. My sister took faster to the "boys' toy section" than I did, but it didn't matter to her that I still liked My Little Pony and my sister was all over the toy insects and snakes. My dad taught my sister and I to shoot and fish. It never occurred to me until college really that those might not have been considered typical "girl" activities.

Hm...I think the toys that littered the ground when I was a kid would probably be LEGOs, K'nex, those magnetic building set things, cardstock airplane sets, plastic ones, and batteries and wires. Now, in college, my roommate's side of the room is littered with her clothes, shoes, and drawings (architecture major) while mine (I'm a mechanical engineering major) is covered in books, various bottles (hence her offhand joke that I seem to be developing a "drinking problem"), and Nerf weapons.

i have no pref though i usually have female avis until i can get a good ammount of items since males are usually neglected on most sites but i guess it does but only because i switch often

no since a person's gender is /not/ defined by avatars unless the person in question is duller than dirt

not really, sorry

I'm not sure about your story, but I've heard of at least some parents who raise their child without gender until the child can speak for itself.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...170824245.html
http://www.parenting.com/blogs/show-...-gender-secret
Two articles on a case from the US.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ild-Sasha.html
And one from the UK.

It's an interesting idea, and certainly changes a problem the medical community had with intersexed children from quite a while. It used to be common practice when a child was born intersexed for them to be assigned at birth on the basis of which genitalia seemed dominant, and the parents tried to raise them from there in the "box" the doctors had slotted the child into (sometimes with disastrous results).

In developmental psychology, there is a case that taught the world (although not immediately because of one doctor's huge problem with ethics and actually listening to the evidence, but that comes later) that gender isn't something that comes in with the child's upbringing (re: nature vs. nurture debate). This was the now infamous Twins Case. I believe the story of David (born Bruce, raised as Brenda until puberty) Reimer speaks for itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GhbVFjIaN0
http://www.slate.com/articles/health...ender_gap.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

I know of David's story. It's tragic. I told it to my dad once and he didn't believe anything like that could have happened until it came on TV in a Nova special.

The story I mentioned was more about letting the child act as it wanted to without fussing over it's sexual role. David's story really shows how badly things can go when people try to force a gender/sex onto someone.

I've never thought about that story in relation to someone's perception of their own sex but it's occurring to me now. David was unhappy as "Brenda" and it says a lot that he chose later to live as a male despite how he was raised. Do we assume that the choice was related to biology when other people also feel that they aren't living as the right sex when they don't happen to have the matching parts?

Not thinking of an answer for that, just rolling the notion around in my head.

It is tragic. When the prof in my Psychology of Gender class this past summer showed the videos about David Reimer in class, there wasn't a dry eye in the room by the end. That put me at ease enough to speak out a week later about my experiences as a transsexual (something I did again in my biology class this semester... I think that started something).

Yeah, I started by editing in the links about children being raised without gender until they can tell people who they are. I think it's neat that there are parents who really want to know their kids instead of following the societal pressure to assign them into boxes from the very start. My editing just got out of control and the story of David Reimer just found its way in.

I would say, from my own perspective, that I never had a choice about transitioning physically from male to female. If I had any choice at all, it was "Do I try to live? Or do I keep trying to die?". There was never a choice about who I was and am. Pain was my life before transition. I was trying to be someone I knew I wasn't, and that caused me so many problems. Since starting to transition I've found myself able to focus on classes for the first time in my life (and my GPA is up quite a bit as a result), I quit drinking (I quit harder drugs long before, but I tried many of them once upon a time), and I actually have a positive outlook on life for the first time ever (in high school I was certain that I would be dead before 30, but this coming February I'll be turning 32).

As far as biology goes, though, there is something interesting going on prior to birth. An area of the brain thought to deal with gender identity (often referred to simply as gender) develops a full month before a fetus' genitalia differentiate. What happens in this month to cause a difference between gender identity and physical sex? We don't really know yet. This is the best hypothesis available right now concerning transsexualism.

That's what I was thinking the whole time. I don't think this story is anymore tragic than one of a little girl who is forced to act feminine and grows up unhappy. I don't think David's parents are any worse for making him grow up acting like a girl than many other parents who make their children grow up acting like their biological sex. I admire the parents who are trying to give their children a choice, even if in our society it always feels like the choice is limited to one or the other. ._.

I usually make female avatars, because I am a girl, I have my own specific style, both in real life and on avatar sites, and it has certain womanly traits, but every now and then, I make a male avatar, for the heck of it. I do not have problem with it, since in role play, I play male characters.

As for perception of other people... It really depends, some I associate with their avatar gender, some not, some I can't tell. I don't know why it is so, but it is. Maybe I take it from writing style or something else. It has led me astray few times, but usually is rather accurate (if I am in doubt, then it's usually someone who isn't distinctively his or hers gender).

But in general, I really don't care about the gender of my conversation partner. Or appearance. If I feel well and comfortable talking, then it doesn't matter, really. I have had a friend whom I sort of knew gender, although I had my reasons to doubt, but I never asked, because s/he was still one of my best friends and gender couldn't matter less.

Yeah, I agree that children shouldn't be forced to act a particular way. Let children explore.

As for David's parents, I don't put any blame on them, really. They were understandably distraught, and they got caught between the family's situation and the unethical Dr. John Money. Sure, they could have listened to their child instead, but they thought of Dr. Money as a person of authority. He was able to calm their fears while ignoring the evidence himself.

We're letting our son choose what he wants to play with, although we do guide him away from some things that are excessively girly -- not because it's gendered, but because a lot of ultra-girly stuff for kids is just... stupid. Seriously, it's not just girl gamers that get shafted with crappy stuff marketed at them.

But he LOVES the Lego Friends collection. And he likes to pretend he's cooking.

He also likes building things and pretending to do science.

1. It depends. I usually switch back and forth from male and female avatars. Most of the time I use female avatars.

2. Depends on the person. I guess I have a neutral perception.

3. It doesn't really matter what gender the person I'm talking to is. If I get to know them well, then I would be curious to know.

1. I really don't care what people refer to me as. this is solely based on the fast that i've cared about it for so long that eventually i gave up and stopped caring. She, he it, i've been called everything at one point- and then some.

2. NOW this, is something that i don't believe i will directly answer (mostly because i forgot the question) but forthe most part, yes i have problems with it, but that's just because i have problems using the correct pronouns for male people with male bodies and female people with female bodies IRL. Ultimately i don't care only because whatever pronoun i use i will use. My mom actually started me on this because she always refers to me as she or her, despite me growing up and currently being a man. Would I like to respect PGP(prefered gender pronouns) yes, yes i would, but you know what, It's not something that is entirely possible for me because despite english being my first language, pronouns are something that have always been hard for me to get correct at times. It seems and feels like a cop-out to the answer, but i'd be lying if i said otherwise.

3. I tend to be curious but i try not to care. To me it's more of a trust thing, if you want me to believe you are the opposite gender, fine, but if i find out otherwise, i'll probably trust you less, solely based on the fact that to a degree it was lying to me. Mind you, I'll be judging this on you yourself. if you honestly believe that you were born a man in a womans body, and want to be associated as such, that's one thing, and i can deal with it. However, if you're lying that you're a man(or woman) because you want to troll, and get caught up in it, that's another thing entirely.

On the subject of that, when I first joined, i had a female avatar at a gf's (at the time) request, and i feel bad about that to a degree. solely because i wasn't allowed to say "yeah but i'm male"

I still wear female avi's from time to time but that's just because i like how they look.

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender?

Female; my own gender. I feel more comfortable that way.

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?

Neutral. I can usually try to guess through writing/typing style, and if that's not easy and I really want to know, I'd ask.

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?

I don't really care. Just don't try to completely fool me into thinking you're something else.

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.

I haven't tried doing a female avi yet, most probably because I don't feel like it so I stick to the male avi in the very end. Perhaps I just don't know how girls usually dresses up, you know their fashion preferences. They just have a hell lot of fshion thingies or subclasses or whatever they call it. The bottom line is their sense of fashion is just way too obscure for me to understand.

2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?

I have a neutral perception and usually I try reading between the lines.

3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?

I usually don't give a damn bout it. I'm quite the introvert and I only talk to a few friends a lot.

I tend to play Female Avi's..I guess it could be because I'm female in real life.. and I've never really thought of it 'shrugs' I jsut like the clothes the female avatars tend to have.

I tend to ignore hte person behind the avi and jsut go with the sex of the avi itself. Such as if a person is playing a male avatar, i call them 'him' not because THEIR genders male but becasue their avi's is.. tend sto cause a bit of a problem with me and people who perfer to be 'genderless' in avi communities.


I don't care about it..

1. I prefer using male avatars, in general, but I am female. I've always felt a bit of a tomboy and, for some reason, nature gave me a generous chesty body. I feel annoyed with so much chest-titude online and in games...so I choose to be a male avatar.

2. Gender online honestly does not matter to me, I just tend to dislike almost nude avatar, I might have some problems I should maybe see a psychiatrist about, but it's mostly from bad experience in my youth and general dislike for gender arguments. I feel as if they just separate the genders even more!

3. I really don't care about it, but not because I don't care for people but simply because it does not matter to me. I love people and I don't want a gender to be some random barrier someone imposes on me; as it has been for me a lot of time in the past, but even today...


On another topic, I really like reading this thread. This is a subject I always thought interesting to chat about especially online.

If anyone cares to discuss the female gender in video games, I would like to hear opinions. ^^ *I am a female gamer and I usually hide behind a male gender or a very hermaphrodite character*

On that note, it is 2h30am and I am quite tired but need to study so I shall leave for a while but I will come back! :f-tired:

1. Do you have a preference for your avatar gender and if so what is it and why and does it match your RL gender? Just answer as much of this question as you prefer.

Yes, I Have mostly Female avatars as sites normally have more of a variety of things for females then males, as well as I find it simpler to get the look I want with female avatars with the only exception being cosplay. I only have two places where I have constant male avatars, one because it cost stupid amounts of money to change your gender and the other I find the male avatars more interesting to dress.


2. Do you have perception issues with gender identification in that if you are looking at a obviously male avatar you think you are talking to a male person and same with female? Or do you have a neutral perception?

Mostly I have that issue with usernames. if is says SparkleMagic45 I auto think its a girl.


3. Do you like to know the gender of the person you talk to online, for example here at Trisphee, or do you just not care about it?

It helps with what to address the person with, though I'm not one to care or judge on anything like that. I honestly don't care if people call me a guy/him/he as Hiei is a male name and when I cosplay or have a male avatar that compounds the problem of persepsion.