Well, I hate to be pessimistic, but Christopher is 87 years old. I don't really think anyone else could do the work even a semblance of justice.

Also, I did find out that he's published a few things of his own, and he was also a professor at Oxford like his father.

Ah. Well there's always the potential that there wasn't enough there to begin with. Dunno. Were there stories like that in Unfinished Tales? Haven't read that one either. Might need it just to flesh out my collection.

Um... well, Unfinished Tales is a very strange book. It's from extremely early in his writing and is as much a story about his process of developing the setting as it is about the setting itself. The stories in it are all weird variants and precursors to stories in the Silm.

The Book of Lost Tales is a bit better, being the sort of deleted scenes to his main books, but even then, they weren't finished. Christopher made the best with what he had. I specifically remember "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin" just ends abruptly halfway through, which is a shame. Tuor was awesome, from the little that's written about him.

The thing about the Fall of Gondolin is that it's a rather long, mostly complete story arc, spanning several chapters spaced out throughout the Silm. and given more detail in Lost Tales.

Beren and Luthien is another longer story, and I think there was more to it that didn't make it into the Silm.

And the Children of Hurin was one of Tolkien's favorites. He wrote many different versions of it, including a multi-thousand line poem in perfect verse and meter.

I can't think of any other tales that would work as stand-alone novels. The only other story of that length that comes to mind is the Akallabeth, that is, the Downfall of Numenor, but unfortunately, that story takes place over hundreds and thousands of years and only really works as a history-book type recounting. There are no consistent focal character (besides Sauron. :p)

I do wish that more had been written about the War of Wrath, as it's depressingly under-detailed and sparse for being the most epic battle in the history of Arda.

Forgot about Lost Tales. I'm not sure I've actually seen that one around, to think of it, at least not often. There are more names appearing that I don't know. I'm still having a hard time sorting the F'ing elves out.

I only have the first Book of Lost Tales. There are two, I believe. Then, there's ten more volumes in the History of Middle-Earth series, none of which I've read. I do somewhat want to read them all, though.

*kicks thread*

We shall now talk about Frodo and Sam's chapters. Does anyone else find these boring? They're a chore for me to get through on re-reads, anymore.

I felt that way about the Council of Elrond when I first read the book, but after reading the Silmarillion and having it as a backdrop, that's one of my favorite chapters.

The Music of the Ainur is probably the reason so many people don't read the Silmarillion. It's a very off-putting way to open the book (though it's also essential). I imagine the stories of the elves that come later would be a lot more appealing to people coming in fresh from tLotR.

I did have an easier time with the council of Elrond than the Music of the Ainur. That's the part I did get through in the Irish laundromat. I made it as far as the council of Elrond before I watched the movie, which actually made the movie more enjoyable I think because I could tell from the first half what changes were being made so while the second half of the movie was surprise (never read the books before then) it gave me an idea of the changes that would be made so I didn't have problems going back to the book.

I still cling to the assertion that Glorfindel should have joined the Fellowship instead of Pippin. That is *such* a fun thought experiment.

That was the idea wasn't it?

I have not read much about Glorfindel I'm afraid, so I am woefully ignorant of the awesomness with which he comported himself in the threads of the Silmarillion. Mayhaps the situation shall be rectified, though sadly that is more likely to be later rather than sooner.

I'm of the opinion that the loss of Pippin's useful actions would be outweighed by having a Balrog-slaying resurrected Nolder lord of the house of Fingolfin who looked upon the Light of the Trees along. But, that's just me. ;)

We may never know what was going on in Tolkein's head when the two hobbits barged into the council to screw things up.

Unless it was the fact that Glorfindel was too uber and would make the journey easy. You'd never want that!

Just think about this:

We don't have Pippin along. No goblin attack in Moria, (or, at least it's delayed).

If the Balrog is still roused, we know have both Gandalf and Glorfindel to take it down. They should both survive, as it is NOT a foe beyond Glorfindel.

So, Gandalf lives. Presumably, no orcs chase them out of Moria since Glorfindel is SHINY and terrifying.

They reach Lothlorien in much better spirits, and together, Glorf. and Gandalf gain much more wisdom and insight from Galadriel and Celeborn.

They sail south and part ways as intended. Aragorn goes west with Boromir and is crowned king. Gandalf and Glorfindel either accompany Frodo to Mordor or go to help rally Rohan.

I could go on...

This line of thought appears to run a little close to "ask the eagles."

Merry wasn't supposed to get there either, don't forget. Who do we get instead of him?

Oh, yes. Did I ever show the essay on debunking why the eagles wouldn't have worked? :p

And I'm sure we could think of someone to send instead of Merry. I mean, almost anyone would be better.

I don't believe I did see that essay, though my assumption was that eagles aren't stupid and would have said something like "are you crazy!!" One suggestion I recall, was to blindfold them.

If I remember correctly, Elrond was about to pick the two other menmbers when the hobbits insisted on coming. Not sure if who he preferred was ever mentioned. He wasn't to happy with it though. Definately thought there could be better people for the job.

Well, you know how Tolkien experts are, they can write in-depth essays on any aspect of the books. :p

And, yeah, but you have to weigh any potential candidates against the acts of fate that allow Merry and Pippin to contribute to the war effort against Sauron. I think Glorfindel is powerful enough that his aid outweighs anything they did, unless he was got deployed to fend off Sauron's northern armies or something.

The object was to be sneaky though. How sneaky would Shiny army stopping boy be?

They wouldn't NEED to be sneaky, then! Did you not see how he drove all 9 Nazgul into the river because they were freaking terrified of him? :D

Gee, and here I thought the river was just pissed off. Oh wait, am I thinking of a different part?

No, same part. Glorfindel chased them into the river. They'd rather "drown" than face him.

Hmm. I'm going to have to read that part again. He was there with Frodo and Bill?

Bill? The pony? Frodo was on Asfolath at this point, Glorfindel's horse. He rode a head, while Glorfindel remains behind the deal with the Nazgul, though they eventually realized what was going on and ran away from Glorf.

Ah. I thought it was Bill. I need to go and read that part again. I probably need to read the entire Fellowship novel again.

Nope, it's definitely Glorfindel's horse Asfolath. They gave it to Arwen in the film, but... they kept the line Namarie, Asfolath which means, literally, "Farewell, Asfolath" which makes sense when Glorflindel sent it ahead with Frodo, but to have Arwen say it while she's riding Asfolath... *confused face*

I guess he didn't plan on people being able to speak elvish. That particular phrase wasn't translated.

It's like the most common word in Elvish, period. Tolkien wrote an entire poem in elvish titled Namarie.

Of course, it's just further evidence that Jackson was not making a film for fans of the books.

Have you considered comparing the elvish in the movie to the translations to see if he actually got it right or just made it up?

My sister can read Tolkein runes, and I had a co-worker once that could speak elvish. She went on a rampage apparently after spilling a mass tub of butter. Not sure how one swears in elvish though.

Do I look like some kind of Tolkien-nerd to you? :p

I can't speak Elvish, I only know I handful of words and roots. And I'm not sure how one would swear in it, either, without getting very creative.

Aren't swears just creative use of ANY language anyways? And we could always scroll back a few pages to remind you where you called yourself the closest to a Tolken nerd this site has? XD

Yes, that was a self-deprecating joke on my part.

And by swears, I meant you'd have to string entire sentences together to get even a remotely vulgar meaning out of them, as Tolkien was a bit sparse on words that didn't have the descriptors "magisterial" "grandiose" and "mythic" attached to their definition. :p

What about numinous? Can't forget that one :p.

Okay, so got my copy of Children of Hurin back. In the preface it states that The Book of Lost Tales was the first project that Tolkein began work on back in WWI, and in that book where three stories that were much longer, those being "The Tale of Tinuviel", "Turambar and teh Foaloke" (lots of accents and tiggles missing here) and "The Fall of Gondolin." It was described in a letter in 1951, his original plans for "a body of more or less collected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogenic, to the level of romantic fairy-story" (Christopher Tolkein quoting here). He wanted to expand on a few of the tales.

"The Tale of Tinuviel" is the story of Beren and Luthien, which is the major theme behind The Silarillion, apparently, and "Turambar and the Foaloke" surfaced as The Children of Hurin, which, according to Tolkein senior, is important to the "elder days" history of elves and men.

Not sure what Christopher plans to do for "The Fall of Gondolin" if anything.

Anyway, such is what I garnered from the book's preface. I'd kind of like to see the fall of Gondolin in a novel form, as much because it might be a while before I get to the Silmarillion.

Do you know much about the Fall of Gondolin? It would be really tough to put into a book, as it takes place over most of the Silm. (the set-up for it, at least) and involves a massive cast of characters. Very different from Children of Hurin.

If that's the case then I imagine it would be done in a manner simillar to The Silmarillion if needed, or other mass historical fiction. It might be easier to follow with more focus on it. Not sure. How many of the characters are all important versus those can be skipped over? It's said a lot that War and Peace has an obscene number of characters in it but there are really only a dozen or so that one needs to keep track of. Is The Silmarillion similar in fashion? I imagine that book has lots of characters in it too, especially if the fall of Gondolin makes up only a little bit of it.

Well, it's been a while since I read it, but the Silm. probably has a fair few expendable characters, and yet... the stories are very disconnected a lot of the time, meaning that people who serve no purpose in one tale are central to another.

And the Fall of Gondolin, as I said takes place over a long time and involves many different characters.

Turgon, the king.
Idril, his daughter.
Eol, the Dark Elf
Maeglin, Idril and Eol's bastard son.
Hurin, who inadvertently guides Morgoth's forces there.
Ecthellion, who leads the city's defnese.
Glorfindel, who leads the civilians out of the city and fights a Balron on a cliff-side.

And one other important character that I can't recall at the moment.

So... maybe not too many, but I could be forgetting others, too.

Was Maeglin the one who forged the sword from Meteorite or was that Eol? The sword that Turin ultimately ends up with. I know something's up with Meaglin but I can't remember what.


That doens't seem to be too many characters, especially if they can be approached in smaller groups, and not all at once.

I think that was Eol. I remember him being a smith.

It was Eol. I just looked it up in CoH. Eol made two swords, one that he gave to Thingol as payment to live in a particular area, and the other was stolen from him by his son. Apparently he was not such a nice guy, in heart as Meilan says, and so the sword is also not so nice. Beleg took it when he went to go look for Turin and it indirectly caused his death. Turin took it after that just before all the supreme nastiness descended. He fought Glaurung with it (finally looked up the silly dragon's name). Maeglin didn't feature in that book though so I'm not sure what's up with him.

And yeah, the sword was made of meteorite and could smash any earthen iron, or so it's said.