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Breaking "Gender Rules"
So I am a male, and I like a lot of things that are designed for girls.
Clothes, dolls, and misc. other things. I don't get to express it much outside of my room, but it's a part of me I've been learning to embrace more lately. Anyone else go against the societal "gender rules"? |
...Gender? What's that? /shot
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Pff. Read my signature. I'm genderqueer, and hate 'gender rules' as you put it. I say be what you what to be. And there are plenty of trans etc users on here, some are even staff! So no one will think you are weird if you express yourself here. Express away!
So my only question is, do you want to be a girl? Or a transvestite? Or do you just like feminine things? Or are you unsure? (All of the above are fine, I'm just curious as to which one, if any, are true for you. And you can always PM me or not answer if you don't feel comfortable) ^^; |
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It's so complicated for me that I'm still pretty unsure. Haven't had a chance to really try anything out so its hard to say what I really want. |
That's what I kinda figured. That's totally alright. But if you ever need to talk, I'm right here <3
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Well thanks, I appreciate that c:
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You don't need to be trans or gender anything to go against societal norms, or at least not bother with them. I personally don't care about the "gender role" business but I do recognize it's there. I wear men's clothing if I like something, I have stuffed animals on my bed becuase I like them, etc.
I find it heartily amusing to hear people talk about the natures of men and women and how one can't pretend to be the other without it being noticed (I've actually seen a couple conversations like this, in this case, talking about people playing characters of the opposite sex in Dungeons and Dragons), especailly when said "gender specialists" keep calling me "he." *snickers* |
It doesn't help that your username is Quiet "Man" Cometh. ;) That threw me for a long time. :P
And I totally get where you're coming from. I had to spend a long time figuring that out for myself, spent plenty of time questioning, and ultimately came to the conclusion that yes, I AM a guy, but that it's okay for guys to like stereotypically-female things. I'm not about to say my conclusion has anything to do with your own self-exploration, but I know where you are. Gender norms, like all stereotypes, are only things that you have to heed when your objective is to avoid controversy. But if you want to stir the pot? GO FOR IT. |
It doesn't help that your username is Quiet "Man" Cometh. ;) That threw me for a long time. :P
And I totally get where you're coming from. I had to spend a long time figuring that out for myself, spent plenty of time questioning, and ultimately came to the conclusion that yes, I AM a guy, but that it's okay for guys to like stereotypically-female things. I'm not about to say my conclusion has anything to do with your own self-exploration, but I know where you are. Gender norms, like all stereotypes, are only things that you have to heed when your objective is to avoid controversy. But if you want to stir the pot? GO FOR IT. |
Heh. That's the poet part speaking. "Quiet Woman" or "Quiet Lady" just didn't have quite the same lyrical ring to it. I did have "Lady behind the shadow man" in my sig for a while when I first joined, just to throw people a little more. It was my hint that I was actually female, though not sure how much of one is was. My avatar was my champion, and thus was a guy to start with. ;)
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People trying to guess genders of people online are silly anyway
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It's silly, yes, but people like being able to shorten their sentences. Having to write "Matt the Merciless created the avatar that belongs to Matt the Merciless, which is below Matt the Merciless's name, to the left of Matt the Merciless's post." instead of "He made his avatar, which is below his name, to the left of his post." is quite tedious. And to do that, one must guess. Or one must write in an awkward style that avoids the issue. Or one can use "they" instead, but then one must deal with the criticism of those who would fight for the "purity" of the English language.
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If someone can't accept the use of "they" in place of "he" or "she" in that case, than they should be ignored
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As for gender rules and roles- I say go with what really feels right to you at your core. And, side note: I, too, collect dolls (I have more than most toy stores have in stock OTL). Which dolls do you collect, and do you customize? ~Kat keeps this tab open, but quickly runs over to the Hobbies Forum to find other non-BJD doll collectors~ Whee! |
I have issues referring to myself, Kiddiss XD (Also. I could swear I've seen you somewhere before o.O;) "She" doesn't sound right anymore. "He" is technically incorrect. "They"...well, the grammar-nazi side of me hates that to no end.
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Espy, I have been using this name sine 1998, so I've been all over. I've been a prisoner of Gaia since 2005, and a member of these following avatar sites since 2008: Avaricia, Roliana, Menewsha, and Kinsaki (on which I just recently re-registered because my account got nuked when the site went down in April 2008). I'm also a 2006 member of IMVU, but I haven't been active there since 2009. Are any of those sites familiar to you?
And, I, too have a bit of a "Grammar Nazi" streak in me. I started in advanced English classes all the way back in Kindergarten (they tested all incoming students for placement at my first school). My brothers are math freaks; I'm the language freak >.< |
I myself, with a (technically) male body, sort of let gender rules cover me since I look and act female. I usually think of myself as female too, but for the most part I'm neither. I personally don't refer to anyone as "sir" or "ma'am" ever, and tend to shy away from gender terms for people until I know them for a while.
As for the conversation at hand...sometimes I do use they or just the person's name, or reword the sentence so I don't need to use a gender term. Bad for grammar? Maybe, but considering how I feel when people call me "he" I don't want others to feel the same because of something I say or write. |
For some papers I wrote for class I did the DnD book thing and just alternated between "he" and "she" while writing. ;). "They" bugs me too because it's a plural term and I may only be speaking of one person. I do use it on occasion now and then though, and it seems to be becoming more accepted to use it when gender is ambiguous or unknown.
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"They" is my preferred pronoun, only because I do not like "he" or "she", "it" is almost insulting, "zie" and "hir" aren't heard-of enough... So therefore, "they" is just about my only option...
People already use it too. "My English teacher is such an idiot." "What'd they do?" "She made us read the wrong book!" We already use it for when we don't know the gender of someone. We don't even really realize it. |
People have been using "they" as their preferred pronoun since before I started school. I started around the time that the education system in the US was changing thanks to the nationalization of government rule over education (I could ne wrong, but I believe he U.S. Board of Education started under the Carter Administration). Older teachers were very, very strict about "proper" grammatical use of pronouns, whilst younger/newer teachers were more lax. I also (as a Navy Brat) went to several elementary schools, three Jr. High/Middle schools, and three Sr. High schools... from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and right in the middle of the U.S. I noticed that the further west we moved, the easier my schools were (I started in VA, then GA, TN, and was in CA for the end of elementary and beginning of Jr. High. I started Sr. High in TX, and moved back to CA the second semester of my Sophomore year. I moved to a different county my Jr. year and finished Sr. High by the beach. That was the easiest of the three high schools - and after my whirlwind schooling across the U.S., I can definitely say that the "Bible Belt" schools were the strictest as far as all classes went, but especially English. If you didn't assign a singular pronoun when speaking or writing about a single person, even the math teachers would correct you Ô_Õ In CA, the teachers didn't really seem to give a shit. Same thing at the university which I attended- which is kinda sad considering it was a private school supposedly on par with "Ivy League" universities. I guess that it has come to a point where it is not only socially, but scholarly acceptable to refer to one person as "they". My own personal bellied is that it is because "they" is the most politically correct word to use. I wish I could remember in which story there was actually a non-gender specific pronoun used (Brave New World, perhaps?). I think that with as much gender ambiguity we have in Western culture, a non-gender specific pronoun should be taught in schools, rather than propagate improper grammar. It's not like new words aren't being added to the English language at an ever-imcreasing rate with the computer world the way it is. Is it offensive to people to want a gender-neutral pronoun? Is it something you folks would welcome in our modern language, or is it too intrusive to want a proper replacement for the use of "they"?
We are living in a culture that is more open to gender-bender roles than any other in history (if you think the Greeks were as open, I disagree. They were primarily homosexual - heterosexual was mainly for procreation, not recreation). As that is the case, I believe we should have a non-gender specific pronoun to use, if nothing else, for the sake of being polite- especially online where gender only exists when/if a person decides to assign one to one's self. Oh, heh, I forgot to warn you guys that my "title" on a couple of avatar sites is "Queen of the Wall 'o Text" *smile* (Arikana & Pink Pantzer will back me up on that ^_~ ) |
-sees the italics-
-runs to check BNW- Nope, it's got gender-specific pronouns. |
It would be nice if you would break your writing down into paragraphs or make sure that paragraphs have a space in between them since indents don't work all that well in forum posts. It would make your text easier to read.
It seems a bit much to say that the Greeks were primarily homosexual. I've never seen anything to indicate that fact in particular, except that relationships between men and boys was not necessarily frowned on, though apparently relationshps between grown men was. To say that heterosexual relationshops were mainly for procreation, one would have to prove that men rarely visited brothels with women. Not sure how one would do that. Literature peppered with relationshps between men and women would also argue against solely homosexual recreation. |
I wish I knew in which text I read that marriage and heterosexual sex was primarily for procreation in ancient Greece (not exclusively, but primarily, from what I recall. I honestly would like to recall where I read that so that I could cite the reference. Without sufficient citation, I concede to you, Quiet ^_^ And thank you for the tip on breaking up my text walls with a space between paragraphs since tab doesn't seem to work here :3
Espy, thanks for looking that up. I admit, I was too lazy to Google it (I'm thumb typing my posts, and that takes a bit out of me). I Googled it and no book or short story came up- so I clicked on an interesting article. The author suggests the word "em" as a singular, non-gender specific pronoun. I think I could get behind something like that. However, the reason I specifically asked what [I]you folks[/u] thought of a new word to be introduced to the English language is because I am not a qualified candidate to offer up such an academic idea as I received my B.A. almost 20 years ago, and I have no human children who may attend a public school at some point (due to two illnesses I have that pass from mother to fetus in the womb, my husband-creature and I decided to get me "fixed" 6 months after we got married, and have no plans to adopt). *YOU FOLKS*, however, are the future. I am guessing that many of you are students and/or are raising and teaching children. You will most likely accomplish much in your lifetimes C: Perhaps petitioning the Board of Education to start including a genderless pronoun for people to be added to modern curriculum. It's a win-win. Kids will be taught proper grammar, and our language will have a neutral pronoun for people. (I don't find it amusing when someone who is asexual or questioning is referred to as "it", Gramma be damned in that situation.) It could start as a social experiment right here on Trisphee. There are new words for currencies and races created, why not at a gender neutral pronoun? I can think of a few people right off the bat who would find that more comfortable (they aren't members of Trisphee... yet ^_~) Is there an appropriate forum im which to further discuss the idea of adding a new word to the Trisphee vocabulary? I think the whole grammar discussion derailed Matt's original post :/ Also, I want to find out more about Matt's doll collection ^_^ Kekeke! Any suggestions? |
Got that for you Kiddiss
I'm not a mod but I can help keep the forums neat and tidy! There seems to be a double post epidemic around lol. I think the forums are hiccuping As for gender roles, I don't believe in 'em and I think they're becoming more and more fluid as time goes on. I wouldn't berate someone that does believe in them though - have a few friends like that - so long as they don't try to pin OTHER people into gender roles and think there's something wrong with them if they don't follow -their- way of thinking. Live and let live! |
I've read most of the responses. About the 'em' concept... I don't like it, as 'em' is a shortened version of Emily. XD I see nothing wrong with making 'them' versatile so that it can also be used when referring to a singular person whose gender is unknown.
Gender roles were never really big in my family, honestly. XD So I can't say much there. |
Ah, stay away from the whole "leave the playing videogames to guys"-thing around me. My dad already does that enough; if he weren't my dad, I'd rant my head off at him.
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http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...iXELS/cute.gifhttp://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...iXELS/cute.gifhttp://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...iXELS/cute.gif http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...se/fmkit07.gif Who says it's wrong? Pfft. I'm a girl, but I prefer doing a man's job. Am I breaking a rule? nope. Look at my siggy quote, that would explain everything ^^ |
I hold doors for men. ;)
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I hold doors for everyone XD
Nothing anyone else tells you that you should be is real, everything that you want to be is permitted. |
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That's a really good statement there Espy :3
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That's close to what the Assassin's Creed motto really means, besides just being cool.
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http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...iXELS/cute.gifhttp://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...iXELS/cute.gifhttp://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t...iXELS/cute.gif http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/x...se/fmkit07.gif I love that statement. Will put that in a customized shirt! |
I should write that on the back of my way-too-big AC shirt. ...I'll throw a pretty gif at you.
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I agree with that. Nice reference.
Personally, I believe that if you are a female and prefer to be male, go for it (or vice versa). I know several people who have either had their gender changed or dress either more like the other gender or such that you can't tell which they are. That is there choice and I support that. |
I just choose the avi that I like. Dunno why the sex of it has to be confusing.
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Ah how cute! You're an Otomen! That is a guy who likes girly things. It's a Manga (Japanese Graphic Novel) I bet you would really enjoy the series.
I'm a girl but I like manly things. I played Baseball my whole life. Had more guy friends than girls. My friends would gasp if they saw me in a skirt/dress, or something pink. I mea I love Hello Kitty but I wear mostly jeans and t shirts. Usually a bit baggy. I only dress up for my fiance lol I think it's awesome that you enjoy the friller side of life. Just becase you're a guy does NOT mean that you have to be all manly! And seriously check out Otomen. I think that you'll really enjoy it! |
I always say I'm the 'guy' in the companionship. And my boy says he's the 'girl'.
I think that society is secretly accepting these changes and hopefully more people will speak up so that all these changes will become mainstream. When people are in a conversation with me and something like this comes up, some people say ~ 'Oh don't you think it's weird that boys like to wear skirts' To which I say ~ 'Nope, my best friend brought a boy in a skirt to prom.' It's funny how once you say you accept something, the people around you suddenly accept it as well. Silly people. |
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Augh. Last year's dress. Oh dear god. If I manage to go in a tux (which I highly, highly doubt), I'd probably get some funny looks...because my friend's going in a dress and wants me to bring her as my date. Oh, my avi's and game characters are almost exclusively male now. At first I was iffy about playing as a guy, but now...I can't really stand playing as a girl. |
Espy - If I ever call you a guy, don't take it personally. I just call people by their avi. I imagine they do it for a reason. *shrug* And I can't wait to see pictures of you in your tux! Convince your mom to let you go in one! It's your freaking prom!
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